The Catfishing and Bait&Switch .
The Catfishing and Bait&Switch .
- Thread starter EXIT431
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You can still find some gems. When I do I pay them a bit extra because I know the boss is taking a big cut, and any extra they can keep it all. Also just walk if the girl who answers the door isn't suitable.
EzyRider
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I agree that it has become extremely annoying, though if you look around international forums you can find many of the same complaints.
If you are organising information, I would suggest making sure you distinguish between the different ways Asian SWs are marketed/accomodated.
1. Independent girls who run their own bookings. These are almost exclusively residents (like the non-Asian independent Kiwis). Tanya, who posts here, and many Kiwi girls who post here, are examples.
2. Agencies that are obviously agencies and work out of fixed premises. Some have mostly Kiwi girls, some just Asian, and some in between. Some are in large buildings, some in suburbs. An example of the latter would be Pillow Talk (houses in Petone and J'ville) in the Wellington area, Stella House in Christchurch.
3. Agencies that are less obviously agencies and work out of suburban houses.
4. Agencies that are less obviously agencies and work out of motels/hotels (though sometimes apartments).
In principle, adverts on NZG and Escortify will tell you whether they are agency or independent, but many agencies seem to just put down "independent".
In my experience, the first two categories are generally not seriously problematic. Some attributes may be exaggerated, the girl may be older than advertised, some may not be that great. However, you're generally meeting the person you think you were going to meet. However, there are advertisements posing as category 1 (independent) who are really category 4, which is a problem! See below.
The third category is a mixed bag. In some houses in Christchurch you get the girl that was advertised. In some others, not so much.
I've little experience with the fourth category, but it seems to be the most problematic. @sbq has written extensively on this category in Christchurch.
What concerns me is how the fourth category is impacting on girls in the first category. Several touring (NZ resident) girls have complained that punters have been wary of them because of the B&S they have had from agency girls in motels (category 4). It does those girls a significant disservice to conflate particular motels or locations with B&S agencies.
How punters deal with these issues varies. My approach is to check reviews and mostly stick with independe girls I know, or who are recommended, and the agencies in the second or third category that seem to be generally reliable.
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That is a nice summary, I havent looked at the market that you have lasted down at number 3 and 4. But I have made booking with independents and reliable agencies. I have not had any issues and I'm not sure if its worth wasting time trying to find gems in the buckets 3 and 4?
Given the girls in points 1 and 2 are reliable and usually good value for money even if they are more expensive than girls in 3 and 4. On escortif.y I put the filter on to try and drown out the noise from b&s profiles.
I too just avoid asians now
sbq
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Where to start? I can get straight to the point with a quick summary.
Basically the reason why we have these B&S (as EzyRider has described in Category 4) is you have a large LARGE group of ageing Chinese sex workers that find themselves not being relevant in the escort market. They know that on face value, they can't compete against the younger, more energetic and physically attractive crop of sex workers that operate in finer escort houses. So they engage with a pimp or online handler that mocks up a profile for them. They are sold on the basis that the handlers can get the customers into their room and like with many things in life, the hard work is done once the punter show up as it's not much more of a battle to get them to stay (i've been a victim of this many times). A fair % of the punters end up paying and staying. How much can they get away all depends on the location. Up in Auckland your chances are not as high getting into a B&S as they are here in Christchurch. Also from the reviews i've been reading in other regions in NZ, areas like in Dunedin can be worse for B&S as these touring ladies tend to stay in places with less competition.
You mention the immigration factor here. Well these older ladies tend to arrive in NZ on a tourist visa. But for a single young SW say 18 - 25, it's more likely to have arrived under a student education visa as it would look more suspicious if they were travelling alone visiting NZ as a tourist. The Student Visa gets them more freedom to mope around the country outside of their studies. Attending English Language schools tends to be a top pick.
Now is this a problem? Only to the person that agrees after walking in the door to a B&S and regrets the service after. Really, the option still exists for all the punters that are so concerned about B&S, to go to the well establish escort houses. No one is forced to choose and take the risk of going into a motel B&S because the online profile photos look all so attractive. It's kinda like caveat emptor (buyer beware).
Is it a problem that they don't declare their income? I don't believe so on the basis that i'm still a big fan of maintaining cash in the economy. The reality is this, what they are doing for cash income is really no different to tradesmen doing cash jobs on the side.
So many ask me why do i do it? Why keep knocking on these motel doors to see if they're B&S? Well I put it down to part of the hunt. I actually don't mind doing these door knocks because you never know what you can find. Call it the Secret Santa? Call it the hunt? For some they think it's downright a waste of time. To me there's a psychological part in this game that brings it kinda like a prehistoric cave man style of mating with the opposite sex.
Basically the reason why we have these B&S (as EzyRider has described in Category 4) is you have a large LARGE group of ageing Chinese sex workers that find themselves not being relevant in the escort market. They know that on face value, they can't compete against the younger, more energetic and physically attractive crop of sex workers that operate in finer escort houses. So they engage with a pimp or online handler that mocks up a profile for them. They are sold on the basis that the handlers can get the customers into their room and like with many things in life, the hard work is done once the punter show up as it's not much more of a battle to get them to stay (i've been a victim of this many times). A fair % of the punters end up paying and staying. How much can they get away all depends on the location. Up in Auckland your chances are not as high getting into a B&S as they are here in Christchurch. Also from the reviews i've been reading in other regions in NZ, areas like in Dunedin can be worse for B&S as these touring ladies tend to stay in places with less competition.
You mention the immigration factor here. Well these older ladies tend to arrive in NZ on a tourist visa. But for a single young SW say 18 - 25, it's more likely to have arrived under a student education visa as it would look more suspicious if they were travelling alone visiting NZ as a tourist. The Student Visa gets them more freedom to mope around the country outside of their studies. Attending English Language schools tends to be a top pick.
Now is this a problem? Only to the person that agrees after walking in the door to a B&S and regrets the service after. Really, the option still exists for all the punters that are so concerned about B&S, to go to the well establish escort houses. No one is forced to choose and take the risk of going into a motel B&S because the online profile photos look all so attractive. It's kinda like caveat emptor (buyer beware).
Is it a problem that they don't declare their income? I don't believe so on the basis that i'm still a big fan of maintaining cash in the economy. The reality is this, what they are doing for cash income is really no different to tradesmen doing cash jobs on the side.
So many ask me why do i do it? Why keep knocking on these motel doors to see if they're B&S? Well I put it down to part of the hunt. I actually don't mind doing these door knocks because you never know what you can find. Call it the Secret Santa? Call it the hunt? For some they think it's downright a waste of time. To me there's a psychological part in this game that brings it kinda like a prehistoric cave man style of mating with the opposite sex.
I don't see the point of telling us that unless you're soliciting feedback on your outline, which I'll provide on the assumption that "publish" means you are attempting serious journalism.
There are three main problems with this:
1. It lacks balance and objectivity, and hence credibility.
Claiming that not one of the hundreds of Chinese girls working in NZ declares anything other than a bare minimum income is unsubstantiated, implausible and pejorative.
Without substantiated evidence and a balanced perspective, serious publishers are extremely unlikely to accept your article.
2. It's unfocussed. It's not clear whether your target is Chinese agencies/managers or Chinese SWers, or Brazilian SWers, or transgender SWers. Nor is it clear whether you are calling out tax evasion, visa abuse, client communications or clients alleged ignorance.
3. It's missing the elephant in the room. If you're claiming that "the Chinese" have "taken over" the Escort industry, where is your examination on the consequences for New Zealand businesses? Because there are still Kiwi agencies and Kiwi independents operating.
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Thank you Harry. With only my experience to go on, the point is to learn, to get informed feedback, and bring coherency and depth.
I want to know how the Money God drives the Pimps view of Customers, simply Marks to be fleeced, and whether Pimps operate with impunity. I want to gauge the financial losses, (as deposits are rarely full refunded), measure how and why so much fraud is being carried out in public view with no government oversight, and only specific to escorting.
From memory only 1 case has been successfully prosecuted. Herald and other media articles on Students working as SW's end around 2017. Now look at the advertising: Just arrived, about 1 out of 10 listings. Some indeed have.
The target is the Government which is failing to control illegal activity, allowing it to flourish. Is it legal to confine Asian mothers at an address and prevent any contact with the outside world? can they walk away?
Firstly then, I wish you luck, that's a challenging assignment
I'm not qualified to comment on most of that but I'll give you what I can.
"whether Pimps operate with impunity" In theory, they don't, but as with much dodgy activity, consequences only follow if complaints are laid with and followed up with the police. So, in practice, my suspicions are that they operate with quite a high degree of impunity, because girls who are working illegally generally won't have the language or cultural skills to know they can complain, and clients are frequently averse to outing themselves (unless amounts are large, as was the case with the SWer recently jailed for fraud--there is a thread on her from just a few days ago about that).
"I want to gauge the financial losses, (as deposits are rarely full refunded), measure how and why so much fraud is being carried out" I don't know how you would get reliable figures for that. You will also need to check the Crimes Act for what, legally, constitutes "fraud". I'm not sure that bait & switch would, legally speaking, be classed as such. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying that when you start going into print with words like "fraud" you need to be certain of your legal ground.
"Now look at the advertising: Just arrived, about 1 out of 10 listings. Some indeed have." You're right, some have. But what proportion? And how are you going to find out the actual proportion (I have no clue)? Also, this is probably another case of misplaced focus. I don't think there is a significant difference, from the point of view of your article, between a case of B&S with a girl who has supposedly been here for a while vs with a girl who has supposedly just arrived.
"Is it legal to confine Asian mothers at an address and prevent any contact with the outside world?" I have no doubt that is illegal, but it's probably covered by general or perhaps immigration law rather than the PRA. i.e. I don't think that's a Sex Worker specific concern. And again, it comes down to visibility. The police can only prosecute if they know. You might have an angle there on "do clients ever suspect? how often do they report? do/would the police act on such reports of suspicions? how could clients be encouraged to report? how can you report suspicions of crime when you want to remain totally anonymous?"
You say the target is the Government, which is valid, but the reality is that neither the Government (nor the opposition, except perhaps the Greens, who are really just a laughing stock at this point) is interested in protecting the rights of Sex Workers, particularly those who are here illegally. AND, they have a pretty easy sell to any complaints (justified or not) that they are letting down foreign sex workers, local sex workers and the client of sex workers: at this point in time the NZ voting public at large has many more serious concerns. Again, I'm not saying that is right, but it is real.
I'm not qualified to comment on most of that but I'll give you what I can.
"whether Pimps operate with impunity" In theory, they don't, but as with much dodgy activity, consequences only follow if complaints are laid with and followed up with the police. So, in practice, my suspicions are that they operate with quite a high degree of impunity, because girls who are working illegally generally won't have the language or cultural skills to know they can complain, and clients are frequently averse to outing themselves (unless amounts are large, as was the case with the SWer recently jailed for fraud--there is a thread on her from just a few days ago about that).
"I want to gauge the financial losses, (as deposits are rarely full refunded), measure how and why so much fraud is being carried out" I don't know how you would get reliable figures for that. You will also need to check the Crimes Act for what, legally, constitutes "fraud". I'm not sure that bait & switch would, legally speaking, be classed as such. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying that when you start going into print with words like "fraud" you need to be certain of your legal ground.
"Now look at the advertising: Just arrived, about 1 out of 10 listings. Some indeed have." You're right, some have. But what proportion? And how are you going to find out the actual proportion (I have no clue)? Also, this is probably another case of misplaced focus. I don't think there is a significant difference, from the point of view of your article, between a case of B&S with a girl who has supposedly been here for a while vs with a girl who has supposedly just arrived.
"Is it legal to confine Asian mothers at an address and prevent any contact with the outside world?" I have no doubt that is illegal, but it's probably covered by general or perhaps immigration law rather than the PRA. i.e. I don't think that's a Sex Worker specific concern. And again, it comes down to visibility. The police can only prosecute if they know. You might have an angle there on "do clients ever suspect? how often do they report? do/would the police act on such reports of suspicions? how could clients be encouraged to report? how can you report suspicions of crime when you want to remain totally anonymous?"
You say the target is the Government, which is valid, but the reality is that neither the Government (nor the opposition, except perhaps the Greens, who are really just a laughing stock at this point) is interested in protecting the rights of Sex Workers, particularly those who are here illegally. AND, they have a pretty easy sell to any complaints (justified or not) that they are letting down foreign sex workers, local sex workers and the client of sex workers: at this point in time the NZ voting public at large has many more serious concerns. Again, I'm not saying that is right, but it is real.
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Think of the "pimp" or "middleman" or whatever you wanna call them as a filter for the escorts. They already deal with heaps of no shows, last minit flakes, timewasters and clients trying to get free "sex chat". Some even try to rub one out to the escort's profile pictures just from hearing the her voice while pretending to ask about services. It’s super frustrating and puts them in a bad mood which can spill over to their next booking. The pimp keeps all that crap away so they can focus on giving better service to the genuine clients. I know they are suppose to be "professionals" but they are human too. Shit like these affects humans.
Not taking sides , i am just showing you guys the other side of the story.
For the bait and switch crap , i have no words.
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Well said
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yup spot on
9 out of 10 times it is , but sadly that is the norm now, not proud of it but we have done this too with the age trick. Its just survival.
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Its because the chinese girls are willing to put in the extra hours. Not saying the kiwi girls are lazy, they do show up to work but my best bet at getting head at 3am in the morning? Its probably from some asian establishment.
Aside from the Illegal visa or even the bait and switch, u cant deny they have crazy good work ethic.
EzyRider
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Ha, yes. To bring it back to one of my concerns, that all this talk about (and actual) B&S is bad for independent NZ residents (whether asian or not). I saw a regular for several years who was a PR with a HK passport, and she put in long hours every day until she felt she had enough money to retire and went back to HK.
Your point about independent workers having to deal with crap inquiries is spot on. At the end of our booking she would go through her (three, one for each platform) phones, express her opinion about many of the queries, and sometimes ask me to clarify what they were asking ("What does 'no rubber' mean, baby?").
EzyRider
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While I know there are some on student visas, I'm not sure that this is that common. I'm also not convinced that there are that many who are actually under 25, but that's a different issue.
Also, it's clear that, in addition to independent workers, many of the girls in some of the agencies are PR. Several asians on the Pillow Talk roster have been there a long time, for example. In Auckland, I've sometimes dropped in to Emily's 8, and the girls I've seen have often been residents.
Getting actual numbers on all this is, of course, not easy.
sbq
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I just read the Wiki and you're 100% right. Trying to create a problem when there really isn't a problem.
I'll reiterate again, the market on these Chinese escort profiles you see online is purely caveate emptor. Your FINAL deal for the service you want, starts WHEN you walk in the door AND hand the cash over. For the B&S, i've been tricked buying things off FB Marketplace so this is not exclusively an Asian escort problem.
When I re-read what EXIT431 is doing, it seems like he has something against these Chinese sex workers when the situation is a lot more complicated than a B&S.
